I think a lot of people are missing the point regarding Mark Duggan, no one is making him out to be a saint, but the point is if we allow someone whether good or bad to be shot dead in the street and and not challenge it then the next person will be your innocent son, brother, father the police will not care.

I don't condone any violence but something is very fishy the police could not control some teenagers for 4 days.

Cameron had a failing government new policing controls possibility of curfews in some areas the list goes on watch this space.

Damn lies and statistics can prove anything.

The facts are the whole premise of blame is to draw attention away from the real problem, the dysfuntionality of the power elite, who continually get away with their behaviors due to their wealth or incomes.

When will they ever learn that you cannot blame societies problem on any group, each has its own unique issues and it goes beyond demographics.

What do we as a community do when our voices are drowned out. To be frank I do not understand the need for young people to carry knives or guns, but is this a black issue? I would say no. We seem quick to bury our own and isolate ourselves simply because we are visible, and cannot hide.

For far too long i was unemployed and never had a pot to urinate in not to say i was lazy or i was not lookin for work i would try my hand at anything even cleaning toilets which i have done on more than one occasion. I was always willing but one thing always managed to stop me LACK OF OPPORTUNITY not that there were no jobs just no one wanted to give me one i would apply for ten jobs at a time sometimes but employers would see me and instantly stereo type me. This was going on for about 2 years which led to anger and frustration because all i wanted was an opportunity to show a employer that i was a good, honest and respectable individual regardless of how i dress and look, it had me saying to myself what do people expect me to do i was on jobseekers allowance with 2 kids to feed and cloth and it got to the point where i would start to think i need to get some sort of income because if it carries on like this im gonna end up doing negative stuff you know all the negative stuff that keeps the ghetto alive and i nearly did because why should my children suffer why should i suffer. Should i be blamed for being backed into a corner with no options while our so called countries leaders have it all at our expense. I cant speak for everyone but i do for the vast majority who just want a descent standard of living but cant get out of this day to day surviving which has been inflicted on us by higher heads this is why you have knife crime, gun crime, drug dealers and pimps and hoes ETC. The maths are simple, give the youths something to do to give them some selfworth and you will see crime slowly deteriorate but with all the scholars and degree holding politicians i get the feeling that they know this already so sadly i think we are living exactly how they want us to live. Sad really.

This woman talks more like a white politican, in fact she is exactly like the members of the elite that want to bring black people down and be ashamed of them. She criticises the black race exactly like a white person and acts like everybody is supposed to be on her side. Infact many of the looters are getting their just desserts, many of them were beaten up and assualted by the police, the looted goods taken back and nearly all have been remanded in custody, from young teenagers who have never had a criminal record for steealing sweets, to career criminals. Don't worry, with sell out idiots like these black people will continue to suffer even more, through criminialisation, racism and stigmatisation.

Question, Should we now be embarassed to be black?

I agree with article. Black people, we need to stop putting our head in the sand and sort out are issues, we do not have a so called 'black community' when compared to the Indians and other ethnic groups that live here and are thriving.

Mark duggan was obviously caught up in something! The man was under obbo (observation) from trident so to say he was a family man is laughable.

We riot when a drug dealer gets shot, instead of trying to eradicate the culture of drug dealing within our so called 'community'

I disagree! I believe it's easier to complain than to actually do something. He never mentioned if he took time out of his "normal life" and helped a young black child. I live in a country were, yes, family men have plenty of guns in there homes & teach their children to shoot them at ages as early as 13. I saw some of the footage & I know most of you live there, but I saw quite a few non-black children looting like they had lost their minds as well. Yes, be angry about the looting, burning & damage of your community. I would be too, but to single out young black people by older so called "decent" black people is a bunch of bull. I will agree with the statement "their are legitimate reasons to riot. I say that all the time, black people will get their panties in a bunch over some foolishness, but let it be a legitimate reason we sit by a mumble & gripe under out breath.

Also that "what has changed" really urks me because that's telling young black kids not to expect anything better which I think has contributed to the "don't give a damn attitude" All youth possess from America to London to Africa. Also to say black kids are consumed with "Consumerisn & Greed", disagree again, ALL THE YOUTH are consumed with this, and most parents are too, which I also think have contributed to the "don't give a damn attitude" of ALL youth of today.

I agree with the parenting part because I see this everyday. Children of neglectful & selfish parenting. Parents who don't care, at all, what they teach their kids. From being theives, womanizers, prostitutes to even drug dealers. I make this comment because in America, in one of our states a Mayor made these exact statements & I believe in that case they were justified because in that particular situation, this was ALL young black kids involved in a flash-mob mentality and they really harmed a few people in the process. Now that was again, as I said earlier, ALL BLACK & it needed to be repeated-it was said years earlier by Bill Cosby & again by President Barack Obama during his running for President.-

In conclusion, I am not condoning any behavior that is destructive, but to only single out young black children, is more destructive than what has been done in London and around the world as a whole. Teach BLACK kids from early age they can be whatever they want to be regardless of what the WORLD will try to tell them they can't be! That is All!

From a Woman In Atlanta, Georgia.

You sound like David Cameron. The culture is a lot more consumer driven than it ever has been, in the past. That is the core difference. And, even my parents have told me, a lot of things are tougher for young people these days. And, in my own experience, it is tougher to get a job, these days because you have to compete with the Eastern Europeans.

I expect this sort of critique in the Daily Mail; whites would love you.

The truth is, the world is not that simple, the riots occured for a kaleidoscope of reasons. Economics was a key part of the reason.

Lets be abundantly clear Mr Duggan was not a law-abiding respectable member of society. He was a gangster who carried a gun. This was the reason for his demise. It amazes me that 500 people can go to his wake believing he was some sort of saint. What is wrong with black people. I am at a complete loss.

"Even if we accept that the roots of this are to be found in the death of Mr Duggan, are we - the majority of law abiding black Londoners meant to join a movement to protest about someone whose choice of lifestyle has finally caught up with them? I am meant to mourn for someone, who was carrying a gun, as I still mourn the loss of Stephen Lawrence?"

Ever heard the one about being innocent until proven guilty?

I would agree with most of your comments. Lets be abundantly clear, Mark Duggan was not a role model or a respected member of the community. He was a criminal with a gun and to seem him portrayed as some kind of Martin Luther King figure as painted by his supportors is outrageous. I just wish some black people get angry at the hundreds of black on black killings that have occurred in our community over the last decade, carried out by the likes of Duggan and his associates.

It also sickens me to my stomach to hear the likes of Lee Jasper defending these riots. I would like him to explain himself to the Sikhs, Turks and other ethnic communities who have lost everything through these disturbances. As someone else said people like Jasper have a vested interest in stirring up racial hatred.

' Black men i'm sorry but a lot of you have failed your kids. '

And some black women KNOWINGLY have unprotected sex with the group of black men who you know are a waste of space .

What is happening on the streets of London and other major cities? Are we to believe that a few angry youths, armed with Blackberry phones are orchestrating a wave of looting, arson and violence in areas of London and across UK? Unlikely. Something just does not seem right?

Local police themselves report 'unknown' police units - not supporting units brought in from other police districts outside London, but unknown units, being present. We have seen the use of state 'agents provocateur' being used in other scenarios be it G8 G20 protests, animal rights and anti nuclear. One policeman, PC Mark Kennedy, was of course brave enough to admit publically that he was used to infiltrate and stir up green activists.

Why would the State want to stir up trouble? The answer is simple. Violence on the street rouses passion for action in good law abiding people. They want action. They want a reaction. Having started massive cuts of our own police Cameron and this whole rotten House of Westminster can now call for European Police to be brought in to help British police. With British armed forces also being cut, especially the army, the Cameron, Clegg and Miliband can also call for European troops to be brought into Britain. Once on the streets they will never leave. Backed by the Civil Contingencies Act (the equivalent of Hitler's Enabling Act) we can all be locked into a dictatorship that much faster and easier.

Wake up!

10 TIMES HARDER

I never did really like it as a teenager when I hear black people say "black kids have to work 10 time harder than whites".

The effect is that you demotivate black kids! I remember thinking about this as a teenager at school. Then I realised that the statement is actually STUPID.

STUPID because I remember my "white" schoolmates working hard in school, and I was working as hard in school...it would have been very hard to work ten times harder, and there are only 24hrs in a day.

Working smarter is another thing, but "whites" also work smarter :-)

EDUCATION, EDUCATION, EDUCATION

When I was a teenager, I remember reading about the transatlantic slave trade.

After reading about the transatlantic slave trade, I realised the importance of reading and writing. During slavery, black people were punished for learning to read and write.

Then it occured to me that the best thing I could do, instead of moaning about slavery, was to do the one thing that slave owners did not want - learn to read, write, stay out of trouble and EDUCATE myself!

The above information should be enough motivation for any self respecting black person to learn to read, write, and educate themselves (in the full sense of the word)

I give the author credit for stating the obvious problem and also possible approaches to help resolve the problem of parenting or lack thereof.

There are single mothers who are effectively able to parent their boys to be law abiding and productive citizens. There are fathers in some of these home but sadly they parent ineffectively. But yes, single mothers on a whole don't fair so well in parenting boys.

Many of these boy's fathers are products of the criminal justice system, an ungoing cycle they seem unabe to weam themselves of and their son or sons happen in their footstep. It's like the cliche lead by example. Some of these youths think it's fashionable to have a criminal reputation. It apparently cement their reputed thug image. Consequences don't seem to affect them much.

Black males who fit a certain profile or are loitering about does draw attention by the police and in some, maybe most cases, these black males will be discriminated against and are "roughed up". Black youths prefer to hang out with their friends at various chosen locations and have their fun. In any case, they are usually viewed as up to no good and is loitering about for possibly criminal reasons.

But getting back to basics, our black men really need to learn respect from an early age, but parents must be respectful as well. They need to know they are loved and that their views are important, but parents have the final say, because a parent will know whats best. They need to learn to make good decisions. They need to understand the consequences of bad behavior and poor decisions. They need to most definitely understand the consequences of criminal behavior. They need to get an education even if it's basic high school education. They need to learn a trade if school is not engaging enough. They need real hobbies other than texting, video games, etc. But for them to process and understand these matters, THEY NEED GUIDANCE.

I agree their needs to be better parenting and better leadership for our black men. The community could benefit from more positive black men in the community and some of these men do take up the responsibility, but they are few in numbers.

Our black youths need firm parenting from an early age. If their single mothers have no positive father figure around, look to the church, other community organisations or learning institutions to help your son or sons gain some direction and prespective. Older men have a vast knowledge of wisdom and sensibility seek them out. Youths are easily bored and tend to overwhelmed by the excitement of engaging in the forbidden, example rioting and looting. These ill-fated exploits were exciting at the time and the consequences for the behavior was given little or any thought at all. When they are caught and are punished by the courts we have failed them terribly, and we should share in the blame. We should have protected them from ever engaging in criminal acts by making them accountable from earlier on about their whereabouts and establishing a curfew they should adhere to. Punish them and explain to them why they are being punished and that their behavior will not be tolerated. Reward them when they comply. A big smile and a huge hug is a great reward in letting them know you are happy they complied and you are proud of them. Throw in their favourite dessert as well. You should have conversations with them, let them know they can talk to you about anything, even about males related issues and if you are unable to address that issue direct him to someone trustworthy who can.

Parents need not only tell their kids how to conduct themselves, but that they as parents MUST also lead by example.

A STORY OF HOW WE AS INDIVIDUALS CAN STEP IN.
I'll share this story with you. I overheard a female teenager on the bus chatting it up with some male teenagers. She was not only loud but the language she was using to boost her popularity with the boys was foul and atrocious. I was appalled to say the least. I decided I needed to speak with her and I hope I'd get the chance to tell her so. I was a counselor by profession.

The bus came to it's final destination and I watched for a moment to have a chat with her. She entered a nearby store with a female friend. I lingered outside waiting for her to exit and hoped I do get the chance to introduce myself. I was planning my approach and my choice words in the meantime because I really wanted her to receive what I feel obligated to say to her.
She exited the store with her friend and they said their goodbyes as they went separate ways.
I approached her, I started with good afternoon miss, can I speak with you for a minute. I told her my name and that I was a counselor. I told her that I was on the bus with her and overheard her using the p-word, f-word and lots more. I told her that as a beautiful female it is not necessary to impress your friends with obscene vulgar words, you are only causing yourself disrespect and a poor reputation as the end result. I told her I was overcome with the responsibility to tell her so and dread she may dismiss me, but I had to try. I let her know I was genuinely concerned about her and asked what profession she hoped to aspire to. She readily said she hoped to be a judge. I was happy to know she had ambition. I asked her if she believes their are female judges who spoke using those vulgar words and she agreed no is the answer. I reminded her she was too beautiful (which she was)to use such words. Surprising she was receptive and seem to genuinely appreciate my imput. I showed her my credentials to prove to her I was a counselor. I thanked her for her time and reached out to shake her hand which we did followed by a friendly hug. I bid her farewell and wished her good fortune with her studies and her hopes of being a judge.
As it turned out, the young lady was a student of a school for teenagers who are rejected by regular high school for bad behavior.
Point of the story, we can intervene as individuals if you see wrongdoings. We can only hope our intervention serves it true purpose.

Good article. I get tired of all the airtime that these so-called "community leaders" get, who in reality are professional rabble rousers who have a vested interest in inciting racial tension. So it's good to hear someone articulating the views of the overwhelming majority of law abiding black people, who value the rule of law as much if not more than any other group. Besides, at whose expense do you imagine gangsters such as Duggan afford their bling lifestyle? It's the poor people who suffer when law breaks down. The rich can get their own security.

Khrystina,while I agree with you that the young people involved in these riots were driven by greed, and consumerism. We can't excuse the fact that society thrives on greed and consumerism,the media targets our children through adverts so we should not be surprised by their greed. They want what they think everyone else has.

I don't agree with Khrystina's 'whats changed' 'we've always had racism', 'we always lived in run down areas' etc. This attitude is unhelpful and suggests that we should just live with it and accept it.

All of these things contribute to the problem, because if black children lived in affluent areas and had access to the top schools, services and all that material stuff, they would not be looting.

However unfortunately, due to their circumstances a lot of black young people do not have the organisation, role-models, education to communicate their issues in a socially acceptable manner.

Black men i'm sorry but a lot of you have failed your kids. You should be there guiding, disciplining them and teaching them how to become balanced young people. Instead it seems in our community children and women are seen as disposal and replaceable, to black men. Unfortunately this is because a majority of black men do not know how to be fathers.

We need to rebuild our families, men need to realise that they are not only fathers in families but they are the HEAD. Fathers teach their sons respect, how to deal with their responsibilities,how to love and respect a woman and other people. They must take responsibility as must other parents.

The death of Mark Duggan was the catalyst, a young man had his head blown off by a fully trained police marksmen. He was wrong to be carrying a gun, no matter which way we look at it,however the police have a duty to uphold the law, and bring people to justice. They are paid to do this and in my opinion this incident makes them no better than the criminals carrying guns and committing murder on our streets. So in answer to your question yes, i think you should mourn the death of Mark Duggan as it is not your place to judge his circumstances.

The black community need to organise themselves and fight against the murder of black males by police and our young people. We need community leaders young and old to inspire youth to reach their potential.

I agree with the contents of the article. I would simply add that this article could have been written any time during the last 30 years. There has been some improvement in our position in society with african - caribbeans increasingly making our mark in the professions and politics. However we do appear to have created an underclass - it's dealing with these people which will provide the challenge for us all. (it is worth noting that the majority of the underclass is of course White).

The problem lies in one area ...below the belt.
If these young stupid woman would take responsibilities for them selves and see that the worthless guys they pick up in the clubs or on the streets have no intention of staying with them there wouldnt be an epidemic of single parent familes.
We even glamourise it with these stupid plays like baby father and the like in the stratford rex etc ... I am a true black person whom i may add grew up in an all white area in the north of england and believe me i faced race each and every day this was back in the 70s ..but i knew there was more to me to rise above that and be someone..
So i stand no variant on the grounds of people saying ohhh the youths today have no prospects ...nope thats a load of horse crap ...INSTEAD OF READING ABOUT JAY Zs, NEXT ALBUM OR WHO LITTLE WAYNE IS BEDDING...HOW ABOUT THESE IMBECILES EDUCATING THERE BRIANS WITH KNOWLEDGE THAT WILL SERVE THEM WELL IN FUTURE LIFE.
They named it WWW which for those of you who didnt know means WORLD WIDE WEB ...that means the world is at your fingertips to enrich your brain and get a good education...black people think the world owes them something .. well heh smell the coffee the world is going past at a rate and unless you jump on the carousel no one cares ...The Asians came here after us and look how they have prospered ...the Chineses came here we never here about them ,,but oh no we have to be cool and be in the front page of the tabloids running out of shops with stolen good ..i shall rephrase that WALKING OUT OF SHOPS...i saw a person of dare i say the older generation with bags in each hand walking out of a store as though she had just come back from normal shopping ...i tell you if you want to be so called bad guys join the army go to iraq and stand and be counted ....dont wear your stupid hoodies that you have not washed for weeks and and shoot and hide your face the cowards way ...id love to see the goverment send each and everyone to afganistan to fight and when there loved ones see them coming home in body bags ..this alone will send a stark message to the others who wish to go down the track of no where ...YES IM SO ANGRY...ALL THIS IS DOING IS FUELING THE BNP TO BE VOTED IN NEXT TIME ROUND ...WATCH THIS SPACE ...NORMAL PEOPLE WHO WANT TO GET ON WITH THERE LIVES HAVE BEEN DISRUPTED BY THE MORONS THIS WEEK...HAVING TO FINISH WORK EARLY ETC ...SO BROS N GALS YOU WILL PAY THE PRICE FOR THIS I ASSURE YOU THAT ...

It shows to me that the multicultural society doesnt work. There are black and white and asian areas. People dont really want to integrate or know each other. These riots happened in areas where there were high numbers of black residents.
It was a good free shopping spree for many black youth who wanted the latert from foot locker or JD sport.

Nationally we are less than 5% of the population a minority, in some inner city areas this rises considerably, but the majority of looters and rioters in London, Birmingham and Manchester were black or mixed race, and we complain about racism and stop and search. We need to get our house on order before we become the laughing stock!

"we have to work ten times harder to achieve the same as our white counterparts"

As a white counterpart, I'd say that whilst there may be some truth in that, it is very generalising and it reflects an attitude that is a bit condescending.

Ok, I'm not you so I don't know what your life experience is, but the reverse is also true. Each of us have our own struggles, so please don't think your achievements are 10 times better than mine just because the majority of English people are white!

Excellently written article (if only all the articles on The Voice were so well put together!)

I agree with you on most of your points except not on the paragraph which ends "I am meant to mourn for someone, who was carrying a gun".

As far as I am aware there is no evidence that this was Mark Duggan's gun - and certainly according to the IPCC, no evidence that he had shot the Police as they had originally erroneously stated.

I also like your points on parenthood - but I don't think you laid enough weight in the direction of absent fathers in the black community. Black men (as you rightly say) have a responsibility to step up to the mark and look after their children.

How can we expect our young black men to behave when they have not had the influence of a proactive father in their life?

It is, as you rightly say, though not entirely about black children - there are plenty of others from various ethnic backgrounds who also took part in these shameful displays of wanton stupidity and recklessness.

In all likelihood they too have very similar home backgrounds - its just that the black community has had the balls to stand up and have this discussion first.

Khristina, i share your outrage and go even beyond than anger.. i am deeply ashamed. However, i think such simplistic venting of anger is unhelpful. Pointing out that black people looting and being lawless gives racists the right to justify their racism is a case of stating the bleeding obvious.

What we as black people need to do is come together and discuss the lack of leadership on all levels be it in the home, at familial level, n our society..and our institution/organization. we don't have leaders and good leadership heading up effective organizations. WHY. It is not enough, as you have done to kick ourselves about this matter instead we need to think and write about WHY we are the way we are so that it can be discussed withing the community. This is where we need to focus in order to start to solve our problems KICKING OURSELVES IS NOT HELPFUL.

Personally I expect more from a paper as old and respected as the VOICE to give us readers an article about this rather than a spleen vent or wearing of a hairshirt or self flaggelation as the article above is doing. This article could as well have been written by someone who supports the policemen who blew Mark Duggans head off. This unhelpful article seems to suggest that mark Duggan deserves what he got or that we should not be surprised..live by the sword die by the sword type of nonsense. LISTEN FOLKS...Mark Duggan deserved his day in court.

I want to read an article that answers important questions for black people like.. where are the BLACK LAWYERS SOLICITERS AND HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVISTS? Why are the spokesmen speaking on behalf of black people in the media ALWAYS EX CRIMINALS OR GANG MEMBERS? Why is Trevor Philips silent at this time even as there are calls for his job and organization to be axed? ABOVE ALL.. How, in the space of 5 days, did we go from calling for an investigation of police shooting of ONE BLACK MAN to a situation where the whole of England is baying for the police to shoot MORE BLACK MEN???

Even if we don't have good leaders at least in places here, like the VOICE..These are the things I expect to be examined.

Superb well balanced piece, but I can't believe amongst all that commmon sense you actually stated: "We’ve had legitimate causes to riot"

There is NO 'legitimate' cause to riot. EVER. Innocent people get hurt and killed in RIOTS. Riots ESCALATE. Indeed, a 'black' riot - which you appear to condone under the right circumstances - causes racial unrest at best. What on earth are you saying? It's as if you were momentarily possessed by some sub-human mongoloid.

You went on to say in the next sentence: "(Stephen Lawrence); the Jean Charles de Menezes killing by the police – and that was an execution, how come we didn’t riot then?"

Which is of course spot on, but I'd suggest poor Stephen Lawrence and Charles de Menezes did not represent black people, in that one was a student who had no business with crime, and the other a brazilian. Sad times.